(no subject)

[anotherusedpage]

FUCK fuck fuck fuck they've elected in a BNP counsellor in Barking. Fuck. Fuckit. Fuck.

Fuck. Fuck I don't want to go back. That actually makes the idea of going home more than a little scary. BNP voting neighbours. Fuckit.

(Not actually my constituency, but the boundary's about three doors down the road....)

ETA: Eleven out of thirty-nine counsellors in Barking. And a new BNP counsellor in my home constituency too, too...

knew I should have committed electoral fraud

*spits*

Comments

[opportunemoment.livejournal.com]

Ouch. Sorry, baby.

[pet-lunatic.livejournal.com]

Argh :(

[foreverdirt.livejournal.com]

Ouch. I'm sorry.

[fhtagn.livejournal.com]

Shit. That really sucks.

[fhtagn.livejournal.com]

And in other news, I will learn to hit "Post Comment", not "Reply to Comment", regardless of how it is disguised by the user's settings.

::sighs::

Still sucks though.

[cannons-at-dawn.livejournal.com]

It's shocking. I am hopeful however that the response from the local community will be positive, along the lines of Tower Hamlets when Derek Beacon got in in 1993.

[knirirr.livejournal.com]

Don't worry too much — the BNP aren't proper racists. After all, the National Front said so!

Below is a letter from the Sunday Times of about a year ago, which went under the title of “we are the real racialists”:

With reference to the letter headed "Odious connection" from a member of the British National Party (Letters, April 3), let me inform your readers and its author that the National Front has no wish to be identified with the BNP. The NF is a Racial Nationalist party, which stands by its original policies of "Stop immigration, Start repatriation". The BNP, for imagined short term political gain, has reneged on its original policies. It now advocates that coloured immigrants be allowed to remain in Britain. It even allows coloured membership and has coloured candidates. It allows homosexual membership of the BNP and fawns on the "gay" vote. It has a Sikh columnist in its newspaper and a Sikh appeared on its television broadcast. These are hardly the policies of a bona fide Nationalist party. No wonder many genuine nationalists are being sacked by the BNP hierarchy and many more leaving for genuine White Nationalist parties. The BNP is no longer a genuine White Racial Nationalist party and the National Front entirely disassociates itself from it. Tom Holmes Chairman, The National Front Great Yarmouth, Norfolk

[dyddgu.livejournal.com]

I remember almost not being able to believe that at the time. Though I suppose at least they're honest...

[knirirr.livejournal.com]

What the BNP are accused of would make sense if they are cultural rather than racial nationalists, stating that all are welcome if they completely assimilate, learn English &c.
In any case, the BNP are a dastardly bunch of left-wing collectivists who are, no doubt, just as corrupt and self-serving as every other party there is.

[cottonwoolfairy.livejournal.com]

Oh my god, that is incredibly shite.

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

Not sure I want to get into an argument here, but they don't fall under any definition of left-wing that I would agree with. They're not national socialists, or even national unionists (trade-unionists, I mean), or at least they weren't last time I checked. When they're not being a one-issue race party, I think they're probably best described as retro-conservative.

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

Oh just don't get me started on the National Front...

Going down the estate with a can of white-wash to white out the swastikas and NF logos used to be a Saturday afternoon family-fun activity, when I was a kid...

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

*cling*

[knirirr.livejournal.com]

They've always looked a bit left to me, and The Political Compass seems to agree. However, their classification is often disputed.

[knirirr.livejournal.com]

I like the way that they have condemned themselves with their own words in this case.

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

I really would like to believe that. But... but Tower Hamlets is vibrant inner-city London, it might have its problems but it's got a good atmosphere about it.

Whereas where I am it's not badly educated people voting BNP cos they're desperate, it's rich middle-class shits voting BNP because they're shits.

[mejoff.livejournal.com]

The political compass has been known to put radical socialists on the far right for no reason I've ever been able to determine. It's just wrong. Also loving your use of the word 'darsardly'.
How far to the right do you have to be to see the BNP as left wing?

[mejoff.livejournal.com]

Jesus Fuck.

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I think that BNP believe in tax cuts, privitisation, and lack of controlling government except in cases of immigration, although it's been a while since I last looked. And I think they're anti-welfare-state

Then, I'd put the libs considerably more authoritatian than they've got them, too, because although they're socially and sexually liberal, they're much more welfare-state than either Labour or the tories.

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

*punches things*

[herringprincess.livejournal.com]

Yurk.

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

Can I move back to tottenham? I preffered the cocaine and the prositutes and the guncrime... (which I just typoed as funcrime)

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

knirrir is pretty much a libertarian. He's, technically speaking, to the right of almost anyone else I've ever met... but we get on just fine as long as we don't talk about taxes :P

[knirirr.livejournal.com]

Dastardly is a good word, and describes most politicians admirably.

As for your other question, it depends on what you mean by "left" and "right". As I see it, all these parties are collectivists, and the labels refer mainly to a metacontextual world view. As an anarchist, I don't approve of any of them.
Of course, fascism is a form of socialism anyway.

[knirirr.livejournal.com]

It's a bit of a crude generalisation, but it always seems to me that the "left" is obsessed with how much money you have (and wants to take it off you) and the "right" with what race you are and who you like to have sex with.

If we are to be subjected to democracy, it would be handy if people would vote for a party that would be socially, sexually and economically liberal, i.e. a minarchist party. At one point UKIP looked as if they might possibly be going that way, but they spoiled it by going on about immigration.

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

Or, y'know, the left is obsessed with how many advantages you don't have and wants people who do to help you pay for them :P

On the other hand I think that's in some ways fairer than assuming that the economic differences are everything, because they're not.

[knirirr.livejournal.com]

It comes down to wealth in the end, though, and wealth is usually measured in money, property and status. The problem with the left's desire to "help the disadvantaged" is that they do so by force (which is therefore immoral), and in doing so just happen to accrue wealth and status for themselves.

I therefore see the likes of the BNP as very similar to other parties. The difference is in what they consider advantages and how they intend to re-arrange them to their own benefit. They're doing basically the same thing though.

[knirirr.livejournal.com]

It depends on your definition of right. ;-)
This may be of some small interest (apologies if I've bored you with it before).

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I'd not actually seen it before.

Faintly creepy, though, in that it seems to assume that most people have absolutely no political nouse of their own and will believe the spin you put on something...

I do think libertarians would have a better time of it if they'd give over assosiating themselves with the right, though. Apart from anything else, the right don't want you... and it does generally give a 'vibe' as the article says of various unpleasant things. Like you said, mostly about race and sex, and mostly from people who don't know what they're talking about, but even so...

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

hmmm.

There are a couple of major differences in my book.

1) Street level violence and intimidation. I dunno if you've ever lived in a NF or BNP area, but even if you have, you've never been gay (or Jewish, for that matter) in one. It can get pretty unpleasent.

2) Hatred. This partly related to 1), in that hatred breeds violence. Also, I think that there's something to be said for having political thought, even poltical thought that you disagree with, behind policy, rather than basing politics on, when it comes right down to it, 'I don't like the look of your face'...

[knirirr.livejournal.com]

it seems to assume that most people have absolutely no political nouse of their own and will believe the spin you put on something

That would be a fair assumption to make based upon our current political system. ;-)

I think that the article does make a useful point that re-phrasing what one has to say will assist people in understanding it. Because of these 'vibes' I have great difficulty in explaining to anyone what libertarians are interested in. For example, if I say "the welfare state has failed the poor by keeping them trapped in poverty, we should abandon it" they hear "f**k the poor", and so on.

[knirirr.livejournal.com]

I still see no difference. Both left and right are guilty of violence, intimidation and hatred, though more so in the 20s and 30s than now.
A couple of examples stick in my mind from my undergraduate days:
1. The BNP were coming to town (Dundee) for a rally. The left heard of this, and turned up in force. The BNP were scared off, but the left went on a rampage through the streets causing considerable damage. I saw this first-hand.
2. Those who said "no" to a Socialist worker seller were often abused. For example:

SWS: Sign this petition against racism!
Me: Sorry, it's not clear to me what that petition is really about, and it says "militant labour" across the top of it. I'm not happy putting my name on a petition run by a party I don't support.
SWS: You f**king nazi! Hey, everyone, that bloke's a f**king facsist!

I suspect that these problems are caused mainly by fringe parties. At present, left-extremism is more socially acceptable than right-extremism, so leftists probably feel the need for violence is less. You'll still find plenty of violent leftists about, though.

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

That would be a fair assumption to make based upon our current political system. ;-)

Yeah, well, that's why it's so fucking creepy. God don't people think *growls*

if I say "the welfare state has failed the poor by keeping them trapped in poverty, we should abandon it" they hear "f**k the poor", and so on.

Mostly I just think 'can't see another way working any better...' I think the welfare state is fixable.

But then you knew that already.

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

*sigh* Bloody socialist worker.

At present, left-extremism is more socially acceptable than right-extremism

I'd disagree. I'd say that what is considered to be left-extremist is considerably less extreme than that which is considered to be right-extremist. I'd practically count new labour as right-extremist.

I think the far left has almost been totally pushed out of the debate, because even being in the centre looks like being extreme left wing at the moment.

Admittedly, there isn't the same fear of the extreme left than there is of the extreme right. But I partly think that that's just because you hardly ever see the extreme left and so it is no threat, and so not feared the way the extreme right is.

[awroe.livejournal.com]

Did you vote in your home constituency? It certainly used to be the case that students could vote in both for local elections.

[sebastienne.livejournal.com]

waaagh!

[knirirr.livejournal.com]

You may well be right.
I fear the left more, as most people seem to be sufficiently wary of the right for them to stand no chance of achieving any serious powers. Many friends and acquaintances of mine openly admit to being socialists (I shudder at this), but none would ever admit to being a fascist. I don't recall ever meeting anyone who would.

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

none would ever admit to being a fascist
On the other hand, how many times have you heard the phrase 'I'm not a fascist, but...'

Socialist as a word I think is falling out of fashion. It's not an option on facebook, I seem to remember. I've ended up ticking the box marked 'liberal' a couple of times with gritted teeth, because I wouldn't describe myself as a liberal at all, really...

[thalassius.livejournal.com]

I haven't got time to source this now or look through the manifesto (horrible idea, and I need sleep) but Norman Tebbit did, and offered the following:

"On the other hand, there is plenty of anti-capitalism, opposition to free trade, commitments to "use all non-destructive means to reduce income inequality", to institute worker ownership, to favour workers' co-operatives, to return parts of the railways to state ownership, to nationalise the Royal National Lifeboat Institution and to withdraw from Nato. That sounds pretty Left-wing to me."

It sounds more like a mish-mash of other policies which are little more than backing for their views on race etc, but havenm't read the manifesto itself so can't tell how much Tebbit is editing.

[knirirr.livejournal.com]

I've heard “I'm not a racist, but...” many times. Of course, racism is not restricted to fascists.

It's also interesting that the word “liberal” has changed. It now seems to mean “socialist”, or something like it, when it used to mean something close to minarchism.